I was having a discussion recently with a friend about women in comics, which led to talking about female gamers. The conversation was going well until my friend (who I always considered a pretty not sexist guy) said this: “There are two types of female gamers: ones who actually like games, and ones who are just trying to get attention.” This comment set me off, we had an argument about it, and it didn’t end well. But that’s another story for another time (or not). The point of this post is to bring the underlying idea of this comment to light. That idea being that women who admit that they’re women online or while gaming are just attention whores. So, let’s dive right in.
As any women who’s online a lot (in certain places) or who games will tell you, the number one sin is admitting you’re female (in any way). You can never do this, even if it’s relevant to the current conversation. Everyone assumes you’re male unless you say that you’re female (ugh, it’s like they think they’re real people or something!). The second you let that bit of information slip, you’re told one (or more) of the following three things: (1) tits or GTFO, (2) get back to the kitchen, or (3) you’re just an attention whore. (I’m not even sure who’s saying 1 or 2 anymore. Do they think that they’re funny or clever with that bit?)
The idea that women only like x because they want attention has been around as long as I can remember. “Women only pretend to like football so that men will like them,” “Women only pretend to like games so that men will like them,” “Women only pretend to like Star Wars so that men will like them, ” etc, etc. According to this stereotype, women only pretend to have interests so that guys will like them. Women have no agency; no interests; the only thing they want is male approval and attention. This stereotype is perfectly illustrated in the Idiot Nerd Girl meme.
Why is this happening when 40% of gamers are now women (PDF) and over 50% of internet users are women? It seems like this is just another way for women to be silenced. If you’re constantly told you’re an “attention whore” for speaking up while female, would you keep doing it? Probably not. That’s why so many women pretend to be men while gaming (here’s a small poll illustrating my point) or online. Or they just let people assume that they’re male. It just makes things easier. I know that when I’m online in certain places, I just let people assume that I’m male. The few times that I’ve admitted to being female (in those places) shit hit the fan. I was called an attention whore, asked for pictures, and told to get back to the kitchen. It’s not fun. I wasn’t upset about it, I was just annoyed because I couldn’t discuss what I wanted to anymore. This just perpetuates the “there are no girls on the internet” trope. But some women won’t be bullied into silence. Those women are called attention whores for refusing to hide the fact that they’re female and still having an opinion.
Things like this are so prevalent online and in nerd culture that it’s hard to understand why so many people are puzzled by (relatively) low numbers of female involvement in these things. It’s because we’re treated like shit by some while others stand by and let it happen over and over again. We (us nerdy women) just can’t fucking please anyone! We’re sexualized when we participate, and then criticized for being attention whores! I can understand why so many women just give up and leave or pretend to be male.
But this kind of thing isn’t limited to just gaming, nerd, or online communities. Any time women speak out, they’re called attention whores. Female skeptic talking about an awkward situation? Attention whore. Female activists bringing attention to victim blaming? Attention whores. Smart woman who blows shit up? Attention whore.
This is something that troubles me frequently. I just want to participate equally in the communities that I enjoy without someone trying to harass me into silence because I had the audacity to have an opinion, interest, or hobby while being female. People rarely ever speak out when these things happen. I can understand why some women remain silent (they don’t want to bring the attention upon themselves). But what about the ones who don’t mind the hate? What about the men who just sit by without speaking up? Won’t someone speak up? I can’t take them all on by myself.
I am not a female or gamer, but the more I learn about the attitude of some men toward women, the more I want to speak out against it. Thank you.
Found you from Blag Hag
I am a female gamer, and this couldn’t be more true. I play WoW, and was recently in a pick-up raid group with my boyfriend and some people we didn’t really know. We were in a chat channel to more easily communicate about the fights and usually in these situations I just stay quiet because it’s easier, but I slipped up and said something in the middle of the fight. The chat went dead. Someone piped up “Was that a girl?” someone else “No way.” And I thought it was done with.
Later my boyfriend made a comment about me and referred to me as a “she” and the guys were like “chicks don’t play wow” or “girls can’t raid.” Apparently having boobs means I can’t play video games well. *le sigh*
Anyways, just wanted to share my side, this was a very well-written post, I’ll add you to my list of blogs I follow
Thanks for sharing your story and for reading!
“Chicks don’t play WoW”? That’s news to me; I only know two people of whom I’m aware that they play, and they’re both women. Mind you, they’re a lesbian couple, so I bet there’s some ad hoc argument why that doesn’t count.
I know a lot of chicks that play WoW, most are moms too. Our guild was 2/3 chicks at one point. All really good players too. We already have our guild for Star wars set up and hope to get more female guildies, Sunrise Soldiers. My toon is DarkAtheist since they wouldn’t let me choose any Star Wars Character names (even obscure ones from the books).
My roommate is really into Star wars old republic you should look her up. What server are you on?
Just as anecdotal information, my daughter plays WOW. She uses a non-gendered name and never admits to being a woman. She told me it’s not worth the hassle.
I’m male and I’m not interested in WOW.* So neither my daughter nor I fit the WOW player stereotype.
*I play TBS games like Civ IV and GalCiv.
Good christ – people actually think that about women? Was there an unreported epidemic of dropping kids on their heads in the late 80s? Or was the switch from the longer-than-it-is-wide Atari joystick to the flat button-heavy controller of the Japanese consoles too much for their little Freudian minds to take? I am aghast.
It does seem really ridiculous to me, but that’s the internet for you. I’ve been playing Battlefield 3 with a few people who just happen to be in the same servers, and this girl in New York that I’ve been in a lot of games with constantly…CONSTANTLY kicks my ass and when we end up on the same team, we somehow always win. I have no trouble saying that she’s just better then I am haha.
From the chicks who blow shit up link:
“Also, in my experience, art + won’t eat meat = mostly worthless”
Wow. Just wow. I think I need a shower now, after clicking that link. Some people are beyond hope. =(
Did you read the signature of the guy who wrote that? It was priceless!
“You’ll never fix anything until you open your minds. A closed mind is predictable, easily manipulated, and rarely missed when it is gone.”
He may as well have stamped his own forehead with a big red “DEFECTIVE” stamp! Lol
Also found on Blag Hag. Nice post – I’ll be back.
Variant of the “attention whore” meme… onscreen, women characters who are competent (therefore unfeminine) get killed off. So male approval in Hollywood-ese is a survival strategy! Via Cracked:
—
“The best point to make about this whole thing has already been made by Ms. Rodriguez herself:
“… people can call it typecast, but I pigeonholed myself … Saying no to the girlfriend, saying no to the girl that gets captured, no to this, no to that, and eventually I just got left with the strong chick who’s always being killed, and there’s nothing wrong with that.”
You read that right: She’s limited her roles to interesting, strong characters. For a male actor, that means “action hero.” For a woman, it means she has to die — over and over and over again, each time making way for the petite model to take down the villain with her Waif-Fu instead.”
—
ARGH
Source: http://www.cracked.com/article_19549_5-old-timey-prejudices-that-still-show-up-in-every-movie.html
This is a great article and I’ve experienced a lot of sexism in the nerd culture and starting to experience more in the skeptic circle. I’ve played WoW since launch and my first character was a male night elf because I didn’t want to be harassed… also I hated how sexualized the females are.
These days I play horde side and with a guild of family people who have kids and are married. Folks are mature when it counts, and fun and immature where it doesn’t! I avoid the jerks like the plague and good lord am I sick to death of the ‘Get in the kitchen’ ‘make me a sammich’ ‘girls don’t play video games’ stereotypes, thankfully I only seem to see that in the trade channel.
For awhile I even worked at a Gamestop (was a third key manager) and I just loved it when the misogynistic jerks came in when it was all girls on shift. They had no idea what to do. I don’t know how many times I had to ‘prove’ my gaming chops by talking about how I’d been gaming since I was old enough to hold a controller and owned almost every system from Atari onward to the Xbox 360.
Online and off I don’t remain silent and I have ruffled a TON of feathers. A LOT of nerd guys don’t want to think about it and really resent it when people bring up the racism/sexism/homophobia of the nerd culture. I rather speak up and be hated then remain silent and liked.
Several years ago when I was playing WoW, I felt like the climate for women in games was almost intolerable. I stopped letting anyone I was female and I played primarily with my IRL friends because my experiences with anonymous players who became aware I was female was so bad (sexism vs. sexual harassment vs. outright threats.) After WoW quite a while passed before I delved back into the MMORPG realm but this year I started playing Rift and so far things have been better (though not perfect, only 1 unpleasant incident so far though.) That gives me hope but I know we still have a ways to go.
A few days ago while waiting in line to check out, 2 guys (in their 20s) in front of me turned around and took notice of my box of Bioshock 2 figures. One of the guys said “Whatcha got there?” somewhat patronizingly and when I told him “Just a Big Daddy and Little Sister.” he & his friend started laughing and said “I can’t believe you know what that is!” as if it was absolutely absurd. I was SO PISSED but bit my tongue to stifle the rude, smart-ass response and anti-stereotype diatribe that was brewing and just briefly explained to them that they shouldn’t be surprised. >:(
I’ve been playing WoW for 6 years now. It’s the only game I can afford as a single mom so I’ve pretty much just stuck with it over the years. I’ve had my share of harassment, but I can honestly say it’s rare that I get any commentary at all. A lot of that has to do with me not saying more than I need to during pick up groups and other activities. I also frequent Role Playing Servers which usually means the male to female ratio is a bit more even. I’ve heard enough horror stories over the years, however, to write a book about harassment in regards to online gaming.
It makes me sad young men and women are -still- being taught that “normal” women don’t play games unless it’s for attention. Well screw that. I play for the story, I play for the community (when they aren’t being jerks) and I play because I freaking like video games!
Thank you for sharing this. I found your blog via Skepchicks, so I’ll be adding you to my blog roll right along side them.
The world needs more Gamer Chicks.
Only so I can chat with them about our kids (and other things) while we kick your ass.
I vaguely recall being told – 5 years ago – that I shouldn’t talk on vent during raids because it distracts the younger players. Shortly after that, I switched to a mature guild that my husband was in. I’ve been with them ever since and I wouldn’t go back to a mixed age guild unless the younger players were children of the older players.
“The idea that women only like x because they want attention”
That’s a misrepresentation.
The idea is not that you are an attention whore for playing games, but for spending your online video gaming broadcasting constantly that you are female as if it was some sort of accomplishment to be a female that does.
“broadcasting constantly that you are female” = speaking with your actual voice.
Snap!
Snap! Exactly.
How exactly is talking in your natural female voice and using your own personal female name the same as “broadcasting constantly that you are female as if it was some sort of accomplishment to be a female”?
You appear to be saying that unless women are actively pretending to be not-women that they’re claiming an accomplishment? If that’s not what you mean, then what do you mean?
After all, most of the guys are “constantly broadcasting” that they’re male. (And “flaunting” that they’re straight.) As if those are accomplishments, instead of just identities, right?
But it takes active work to broadcast (i.e. demonstrate) that you’re a doucheweasel.
*go to class, get home, check blog* “What’s with all the comments?”
You guys are awesome. Thanks for responding to this guys stupidity while I was in class.
When you are online, you have 3 choices: 1) be your authentic, true self, which at times may include identifying your gender, 2) be anonymous, or 3) pretend to be something you are not (lie).
Which are you in favor of?
I’m in favor of not telling other people how they should present themselves online. Not everyone can put up with harassment, and they shouldn’t be shamed into trying.
Are you the Andrew Wakefield whose British medical license was revoked for unethical behavior?
So true. I enjoy both the company of women AND video games. Can’t you guys stop being assholes so I can have both at the same time!?
I would summarize the jerky POV of the louder, more obnoxious gaming males as “I am distracted by vaginas. Therefore, the only reason anyone would have a vagina is specifically to distract me.”
Oh, okay, I get it now. It’s a tactic. “Hey, look over there! It’s a vagina!”, “Where?” **THUD**. So the next question is where is natural selection when you need it? Shouldn’t all the THUDs be removing maladapted individuals from the gene pool?
This is exactly the point. The classic nerd is supposed to be awkward with women. When he finds out that the person he thought was a guy is actually a woman first he probably feels foolish and betrayed so he must lash out. Then he realizes that he may actually be atracted to said woman and he feels a little gay for it because until a minute ago this woman was a guy and he lashes out. They have apparently claimed gaming for themselves in some sort of ancient rite and the notion of a woman imposing herself in their realm is completely rediculous. This concept should be studied for a doctoral thesis.
It’s the fucking internet. Who gives a shit?
…sez random drive-by turd-dropper, natch.
Half of the population.
Anyone who is an “attention whore” (male or female) is fairly easy to sniff out. As a female gamer (and many other things-as I am a very multi-faceted person, as most people are), I can honestly say that I’ve only had a couple of situations where disclosing my sex actually ended up causing severe problems or made me get discredited (mostly if I was talking about feminism, sexism or any other thing that makes most guys feel personally attacked if you even try and bring it up).
For example, I write a blog on Game Informer and I am “out” as a woman on the site. I am generally quite well respected, having earned the title as one of the elite eight on the site, and my blogs are popped onto the home page. However, out of the eight, I am the only (known) female blogger of the group. There are other female bloggers who come onto the main blog page from time to time, but most of them do either hide their gender unless they join guild/groups (such as the brony group that I am a member of), or like me, don’t make a big deal of it.
The real “attention whore” types are rather obvious, though. There was one blogger who would constantly post pictures of herself in “camwhore” poses and talk about how Lady Gaga was so unique and exemplified her soul. She wrote blog posts that were largely self-centered, white-suburbanite drivel and had nothing to do with gaming, which bothered most people on the site. Most of her supposedly pithy “original” ideas sounded like the lines from mainstream pop music. Eventually, after being told that she her writing was probably more appropriate for Live Journal enough times, she left the site but not after making a huge fuss about it as though it was the most horrible thing in the universe that no one on the game website wanted to hear about the minutia of her days.
There was another blogger who spent the entire time she was on there trying to get pity by mentioning that she had a bout of cancer every time someone didn’t agree with her. When I requested to be friends with her, she unfriended me simply because I did not comment on every single one of her blogs and then tried to drum up drama by writing a huge blog post about how horrible I was and encouraging the other male posters to gang up against me. Obviously, this did not work, and I responded to her attack with a calmly worded civil reply that she had the choice to be friendly or unfriendly with whomever she wished as that was her choice to make. Many of the other bloggers felt that she was being unnecessarily ridiculous about it, and after she apologized and attempted to drum up other drama in other blog posts, she finally left the site.
There are several other female bloggers on the site who are pretty awesome as well, but from the specific examples of “out” females on a site, especially a site where most of the bloggers outright identify themselves as male (regardless of their actual gender/sex, mind you), unfortunately it does seem that many of the so-called “drama whores” identify as female (once again, regardless of whether or not they actually ARE female in real life) SPECIFICALLY because they want to attempt to use the stereotypes to make it easier to prey upon the supposedly “girl-starved, totally unable to deal with female people geeky guys” who are stereotypically supposed to be on those sorts of websites. So really, it’s a stereotype fishing for a stereotype, and while they obviously do exist, it does quite incense me to know that the majority of males are generally immune to being attacked by other males for falling into the “geeky guy” stereotype but women, who generally don’t identify themselves are judged unduly as “drama whores” just because there is a very real group of people who SAY they are female using supposed “female wiles” to engage in cyber gold-digging, which simply adds another facet to yet another sexist stereotype that has already been around for many many centuries.
*sigh* Keep fighting the good fight. Goodness knows that there are so few people who can stand up to the mountains of trolls and stereotypical garbage that is engaged in online.
This really is a well thought out, well written observation. It deserves to go viral. It seems to me that you are on to a great topic for a doctoral disertaion here. Well done.
You should look deeper into their reaction. Why are they surprised that a woman is playing online games?
Because, subconsciously, they believe that women are more mature and responsible than men, and don’t expect them to be spending their time doing mindless gaming.
Why are they hostile toward women who play games?
Because they resent the fact that they can’t easily get girls to date them, and that is why they have so much time to play computer games. They hide in their rooms with their little pretend friends online, and they respond to any women who dares to intrude on their safe haven from having to be attractive to women.
It’s sad, actually. Sniff sniff.
“mindless gaming”? “pretend friends”?
Perhaps you have some stereotype issues of your own to examine? I’m not much of a gamer myself, but I know plenty of grown adults with careers and mortgages who are gamers. Many of them are fun and fascinating people who are never at a loss for people to spend time with offline, either. They play computer games, often in groups in each others living rooms, because computer games are FUN.
The folks I’m friends with are the ones who wouldn’t freak out about hearing a woman’s voice in their gaming headset, of course (not least because many of them are women). But they all know plenty of grown independent men in their workplaces, men with girlfriends even, who would freak out at that. It’s not as simple as just dateless dorks with socialising problems. Many of these men manage the social and dating niceties perfectly normally* away from gaming.
*normally = without a raised consciousness of social justice issues, but not being pointed and laughed at as a rule.
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Thank you for that lovely thought out piece. It’s always an education for me to have someone point out that the environs of nerdom/geekdom that i inhabit is not the norm. It also makes me glad that there are places where men and women are not only treated as equals but expected to carry their weight as equals. My nerdom is rather small. I play Dungeons and Dragons, I’m a Final Fantasy junky, I worship at the altar of the new Battlestar Galactica. I costume. And in all cases the men of these groups are highly respectful (or at least as much as they are to the other men in the group), they make no exceptions, pull no punches and expect no less from the women of the groups. Although, I will give them credit, they will call out others who are acting like asses and won’t put up with anyone harassing anyone else for their choices of costumes, fandoms or geekery.
Maybe I’m thick skinned, or maybe I just can’t be bothered to care about other idiots on line or in fandom. I won’t stop being myself ( a girl) just because some idiot or group of idiots can’t wrap their minds around the fact that I game, I costume, I love scifi (and i honestly cannot remember a time when Star Wars wasnt in my life, and it premiered the year i was born), I probably know as much if not more about football than they do and that i enjoy it.
Thanks to seelix for the link to this!
Take that Marie Curie; what an attention whore! Reasonable people would be satisfied with one Nobel prize, but nooooo, she has to get two. Only way she could get any male attention, clearly, with that frizzy hair not to mention that tendency to glow in the dark.
(At the risk of falling prey to Poe’s Law, the above is intended as snark.)
I used to have a lot of problems being in groups/raids/new guilds and people finding out I’m a girl in World of Warcraft. I had a guy whisper me out of the blue while running around in a part of the world that people tended to avoid and ask if I am a girl irl and proceed to beg me to be his girlfriend. In the past 3 years I’ve noticed a huge down trend. Even if someone is surprised I’m a girl when I join a new group, I’m not the only one laughing at them for thinking it’s a big deal. There are still major problems to be confronted, but at least on that front I feel like we’ve made progress.
Love the article. We have a gaming group at the Mega Corp where I work, and the leader is a woman. Nobody gives her any guff, but I have noticed that there is an undercurrent of misogyny toward “generic” women. I haven’t attended often enough to know names, but I think I’ll see if I can call people out on that next time I attend. I’ve tried to use the Miss Manners cold shoulder/freezing gaze in situations like that, but this group does not know “subtle.”
FYI: CaitieCat on Shakesville discusses speaking up to her gamer group.
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/11/why-arent-there-more-women-in-gaming.html
Good article. I’m a female gamer and a nerd in general – love comics, horror/sci-fi movies, etc. I’m also a fan of metal and industrial music, as well as a sports fan (auto racing, soccer, hockey, baseball). All of these things are really “guy-centric” and a girl being really into these things is a little odd to most guys.
When I first got Xbox Live, my gamertag had the word “chick” in it, I thought nothing of it at first. But when I played Halo online I was constantly getting harassed by guys because my username gave me away – again, I didn’t realize at first how much of a problem that would be. I finally just ended up muting everyone so I couldn’t hear what they were saying about me. I could still tell that in some games I was being targeted more than others though. I wonder how they felt after the games where I ended up being MVP
I did meet a couple genuinely nice guys on there that I used to play a lot with but the majority had feelings that girls should not be playing video games and that they must suck. I mean I know I’m not that great, my k/d ratio was around 0.7 I think, but some of these people shouldn’t be talking when they do worse than me.
As for other stuff, a while ago when I would go to metal concerts there were hardly any girls there so I would always get a lot of unwanted attention. Nowadays the scene has more girls so it’s generally becoming accepted that there are female metalheads too I guess. I’m also a forum moderator on a fansite for my favorite soccer team and treatment toward female fans has gotten a lot better since I first joined the site. Don’t know why so many male gamers are so far behind in terms of acceptance of women compared to these examples.
Anyway, just wanted to share my story
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You forgot response #4–There are no girls on the internet.
I’m also a female and a gamer. I play D&D online and have had very few bad experiences. I think the worst comment I’ve had was something “Let me guess, all your toons are female elves”. Which was stupid, but whatever. I just said “Nope” and cheerfully listed my characters genders and races. I’ve had a few mildly creepy remarks but usually they get mocked for it, not me.
And I used to sometimes avoid voice chat for fear, and I understand why someone would do it, but it seems foolish to me now. If there are guys out there that don’t want their little club to get infected with girl cooties, screw ‘em. If they don’t like it they can leave, why should I? Plus I hate typing while playing.
The one thing I hate, though, is that I worry a lot that if I screw up it’ll be “because I’m female”. Thus confirming the stereotype and making it harder for all of us. I actually have a fair bit of anxiety about that, but what am I gonna do?
“Things like this are so prevalent online and in nerd culture that it’s hard to understand why so many people are puzzled by (relatively) low numbers of female involvement in these things. It’s because we’re treated like shit by some while others stand by and let it happen over and over again.”
So women are treated better in other areas of society? Jocks treat women better? The sport culture treat women better? Politics, government treat women better? Doubt it. I agree women are treated not as well as men, but that is not the reason why not a lot of women participate. It is because the vast majority of women are on fashion, art, makeup, celebrity gossip, blogging, and social networking websites. Women in general just lack interest in nerd subjects. In fact, women in general lack interests in most not listed above.
Once again with the lack of accountability on the part of women.
I would try to counter the points you tried to make there, but I’m afraid that nothing you said makes a damn bit of sense. I’d try to insult your intelligence for writing such an idiotic comment, but I’m afraid you wouldn’t understand it.
And, please, for your own benefit, learn how to use question marks properly.
I disagree with you when it comes to women lacking interest in those fields that you mentioned that are primarily male dominated. Plenty of women are interested in those things just as much as men are, but due to gender roles it’s not expected and not considered normal.
Example: I was talking to my (male) friend about BJJ (Brazilian Jiu jitsu), just asking a few questions about it, when I mentioned I wanted to join. “Girls don’t do BJJ.” He said and then wouldn’t elaborate or continue talking to me. I was talking to another friend who wanted to join (female) and she was also really unimpressed by his comment. We ended up not joining because we didn’t want to be the minority. We should’ve though, because we could’ve and who needs a better reason?
This is very true. I know several women who dropped out of computer science courses after being completely harassed. :/
After reading all the comments on this I realize Ive been rather lucky in my gaming experiences. Im by no means a hard core gamer, but Im willing to try just about any game if it looks fun. Ive had friends tell their guilds/forum-mates/gaming-groups about me, and have always had a massive clamor for my inclusion into the group. I can only hope that as time goes on and women stand up against the douche-baggery that more and more women will find themselves welcomed enthusiastically into internet and gaming communities as I have been.